all those names...

[EBH]

Hi,
I'm a bit confused by all the names I read.
Is there a list with the name of the species (latin) vs the common name?

Thanks!

Edwin

[txrepgirl]

Hi EBH. Welcome to our Tegu forum family. Hope this helps.

Tupinambis merianae, Common name (Argentine Black and White), and the Chacoan or (Giant Tegu)

This is our Argentine b/w Tegu:

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww346/txrepgirl/SS851974.jpg

This is a extreme giant Tegu:

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww346/txrepgirl/Mom and Dad of my two All American Tegus/DSCN4084.jpg



Tupinambis rufescens, Common name (Argentine red Tegu), (Red tegu)

This is my boyfriend holding a red Tegu:

http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww346/txrepgirl/Reptile Expo/SS852594.jpg


Blue Tegu, thought to be (Tupinambis merianae)

The blue Tegus have the dark brown nose:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/anya-101/IMG_7572.jpg


Tupinambis teguixin, Common name (Colombian Black and White), (Gold Tegu)

This is a Columbian b/w Tegu:

http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv129/LotteColombia_2009/Isla San Andres/17Tupinambisteguixin.jpg


This is a Columbian black/gold Tegu:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/Lyndworm/TeguLizardSpreadOutFacingLeft.jpg

[ReptiTheTeguFreak]

I found this very helpful! And the pictures are great :D thanks!

[EBH]

Thanks. It is helpfull!
Is the extreme giant also a merianae? A morph?
What about hybrids? Does that make something special?

Nice pics!

[txrepgirl]

Your welcome. I'm glad I could help. Yes, the extreme giant ( Chacoan ) is the same as the Argentine b/w ( merianae ). Just lighter in color. I think all the Argentines are the same for except different colors. Same with the hybrids ( different Argentines bred together not with a Columbian ). I'm sure if I'm wrong about something tupinambis ( one of our members here on the forum ) will correct me :) . He knows allot about Tegus.

[tupinambis]

Basically you are correct, albeit still a little "confusing" to those who perhaps aren't too familiar with the issues. Recently there was a paper suggesting splitting the genus into two with the "Argentines" (lord how I hate how this has persisted) in one genus, Salvator, and all the others left in the original genus of Tupinambis.

So with this new nomenclature, we have it as:

Salvator rufescens, English common name - Argentine Red Tegu
Salvator merianae, English common name - Argentine Black & White Tegu
-within this species we have some "distinctive" morphs:
-Blues
-Chacoans/Extreme Giants
-Purple
-etc......
(keep in mind that while there is an appearance of a 'bloodline' to many of these, many times all anyone is doing is saying "that tegu has this character, that feature, this colour, and therefore it is a X tegu, therefore these are not actual bloodlines. Also, just because someone has claimed them to be "Argentine" or "Chacoan" or some other regional reference, this in NO WAY actually means these animals actually are from these regions or are representative of the most common phenotype of these regions)

Tupinambis teguixin, English common name - Colombian Black & White or Colombian Black & Gold Tegu

There are 4 other recognized species (one Salvator, three other Tupinambis) but these are not available in the pet trade.

[EBH]

Thanks!
Do you have a link to this paper? Is it based with genetic reseach?
I quess T. duseni would be a S. too...?
Are people working on genetic research on this genus?

I know, lots of questions... :)

[chitodadon]

Basically you are correct, albeit still a little "confusing" to those who perhaps aren't too familiar with the issues. Recently there was a paper suggesting splitting the genus into two with the "Argentines" (lord how I hate how this has persisted) in one genus, Salvator, and all the others left in the original genus of Tupinambis.

So with this new nomenclature, we have it as:

Salvator rufescens, English common name - Argentine Red Tegu
Salvator merianae, English common name - Argentine Black & White Tegu
-within this species we have some "distinctive" morphs:
-Blues
-Chacoans/Extreme Giants
-Purple
-etc......
(keep in mind that while there is an appearance of a 'bloodline' to many of these, many times all anyone is doing is saying "that tegu has this character, that feature, this colour, and therefore it is a X tegu, therefore these are not actual bloodlines. Also, just because someone has claimed them to be "Argentine" or "Chacoan" or some other regional reference, this in NO WAY actually means these animals actually are from these regions or are representative of the most common phenotype of these regions)

Tupinambis teguixin, English common name - Colombian Black & White or Colombian Black & Gold Tegu

There are 4 other recognized species (one Salvator, three other Tupinambis) but these are not available in the pet trade.

What about the yellow tegu

from Samsung Galaxy S3

[tupinambis]

It is based somewhat on previous researchers genetic work and on other factors as well (primarily morphology). They reworked the entire Teiidae family and their focus was primarily on other groups, and while I feel the primary basis for the split in the tegus really only showed their unfamiliarity with the members of the genus, I still support the schism because I truly believe it exists, just not the primary character they presented in the paper - the loreal scales. Many papers in the past have always recounted the "Argentines" as having two loreal scales, and the others as one loreal scale (I prefer respectively the southern clade vs. the northern clade as I feel this is more accurate) and this is the primary character the authors have gone with (as well as some shallow genetic analysis from previous researchers that supports the two clade scenario). In the pet industry there have been numerous examples of Salvator merianae possessing one scale on one side of their snout or other, and I currently have some Paulistan S. merianae that all only have single loreals (while I have absolute certainty on the geographic origin of these tegus - they are indeed from Sao Paulo state, Brasil because I went there, produced these tegus from parental stock there, and then brought these individuals home with me - I cannot say with any certainty that ALL S. merianae from this region commonly display this character as many I've worked with do not). Therefore with such overbearing evidence I do not support the claim that 2 loreal scales = Salvator and one loreal scale = Tupinambis but I DO support the schism because I feel there is enough differences between the two clades to justify dividing the genus and that the two genuses presented are internally consistent. I brought up this paper in an earlier thread : http://www.thetegu.com/showthread.php?11655-Just-when-you-thought-you-had-a-handle-on-tegu-systematics&highlight=taxonomy

As for the yellow tegu, yes, it was formerly Tupinambis duseni and under this newer paper's claim would be called Salvator duseni.

[chitodadon]

I want two yellows

from Samsung Galaxy S3

[txrepgirl]

Thank you tupinambis for your information ;) .

[EBH]

Thanks for your answer.
You wrote
I prefer respectively the southern clade vs. the northern clade as I feel this is more accurate
Can you give a map where all the (sub) species live? I've found this link: http://reptile-database.reptarium.cz/search?search=tupinambis&submit=Search
How would your map look like? How would your taxonomy look like?

And just another question (slightly related to this topic)
What species would this be?

[tupinambis]

There is no map for any subspecies as no subspecies are recognized (there is one paper that did attempt to introduce some subspecies for one tegu, but it was soundly rejected). As for a map of species, there isn't one out there that I'd put much faith in. Sadly, South America is rather poorly explored when it comes to organisms and their distribution. For example, any of the maps that indicate the distribution of Salvator merianae typically do not show many of the countries where people have claimed to have seen them, or as another example, species like Tupinambis palustris were only discovered because IBAMA teams collected all the animals they could in an area before a dam project destroyed the area, and came across some animals that were never discovered before. So, they know the exact area where they were found, they clearly no longer live there, but don't have any idea where exactly they could otherwise be found. The former taxonomy was one genus with seven species:
Genus Tupinambis
-T. rufescens
-T. duseni
-T. merianae
-T. teguixin
-T. palustris
-T. quadrilineatus
-T. longilineus
If you really know your stuff, you'll recognize that I've basically listed those species in an order that you'd likely first encounter them if you were travelling north from the southern most point of South America. The taxonomy that has now been presented is 2 genuses, Salvator (with 3 species) and Tupinambis (with 4 species) and would be like:
Genus Salvator
-S. rufescens
-S. duseni
-S. merianae
Genus Tupinambis
-T. teguixin
-T. palustris
-T. quadrilineatus
-T. longilineus
From this it should be abundantly clear where the terms southern clade and northern clade come from, those now found in Genus Salvator are predominantly found in the southern end of South America, while those found in Genus Tupinambis are predominantly found in the northern end of South America.

I'd say the lizard in those photographs are ​Salvator merianae.

[EBH]

and the blue tegu... Would you consider it a "morph" of a merianae or is it more close to a duseni? Duseni has also a black nose and is found more to the north, where the temperature is higher during the year... (no hibernation).
Or could it be a natural crossbred between duseni and merianae? And the extreme a crossbred between merianae and rufescens?

Or are the blues in captivity from a northern part of the continent and can they be found in the southern part too...
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/5624_486203684773470_1249635464_n.jpg
The text with this picture was:
Wild tegu in Iguazú, Misiones, Argentina... and it's a blue i think

I'm confused, filled with questionmarks and almost getting tired of all my questions 8)

[tupinambis]

First:

Salvator merianae, English common name - Argentine Black & White Tegu
-within this species we have some "distinctive" morphs:
-Blues
-Chacoans/Extreme Giants
-Purple
-etc......
I think this should be abundantly clear, I have stated that the blue is a morph of Salvator merianae

Second, I have said this over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over......so forgive me if this is sounding arrogant, pedantic, and condescending, because it appears no one ever listens, but - in an animal as polymorphic as Salvator merianae (polymorphic meaning it comes in many different colours, many different patterns, of various mixes and combinations) saying it is of another species because of colour is like telling someone they drive a Chevy because their vehicle is blue. Seriously, stop looking at the colours of these animals, they are inconsistent in nearly ALL the species. None of the species were described based on their colouration, why do hobbyists seem to be completely unable to look beyond this shallow character?!? I'm truly boggled by this. Your friend drives up to your house in what looks like a Ferrari, sounds like a Ferrari, has the engine of a Ferrari, all the logos and paraphernalia, but you laugh at your friend and tell him it's just a Citroen because it is yellow. This is what happens all the time with tegus. It's frustrating. Colours only mean something for the classification of the morphs, NOT the species. The dark "tear drop" is NOT a character strictly of the blues. It's present in numerous populations of Salvator merianae. Plus, the Blue is NOT recognized as a species unto itself. I know, I know, this is what hobbyists have been telling themselves and each other for years. Hobbyists don't know much about the species, and particularly the hobbyists who started this myth, the St.Pierres. Here's a history lesson: back in the 90's, the St.Pierres order some Colombian tegus from South America. In their order they got 2 different types of tegus, typical Colombians and what they called "the Blues". To them, they were definitely different but they don't know how to tell one species from another and so they claimed they had either a subspecies (which to anyone with more observational skills than a grade schooller should be able to tell they were not that similar in any regard) or they had an entirely new species. As always amongst hobbyists, when a breeder steps up and proclaims something like this, it is taken as gospel, the word of God. I had a very open debate with the St.Pierres on kingsnake.com in which Stella finally had to admit they have never read any of the papers describing the tegu species and had no idea what science has used to determine the different species, they just said it was a different species because thats what they feel it should be, they used NO DEFINITIVE CRITERIA WHATSOEVER. However, same as Bobby Hill and his Chacoans, same with others, because they're breeders hobbyists have bought into this myth and have become puppets in willing to pay inflated prices for these morphs because they have been convinced they are something special. But let's not stop there. While I was doing my research in Brasil (which was also about the time this debate took place) I was working with several of the scientists who have "discovered" and described some of the tegu species. I took any of the photos presented at that time as "Blues" to these scientists (who I'd say were more knowledgeable than I of the species at the time) and every single one of them looked at me like I was mad when I said people were claiming it as a new species. To them, without a doubt, it was a variant of T.merianae. Now, this being said, there can be some forgiveness for the confusion because not long before this, numerous papers had come out totally messing up the species classifications, with some claiming merianae and teguixin to be the same (these authors were woefully unfamiliar with the species) and it wasn't until 1995 when someone cleared it up - however not in a common and readily accessible journal. Publish some piece of fraudulent garbage in Reptiles magazine and be a breeder, and all the hobbyists swallow it up. Publish something extremely in depth and full of real information in a little known, small publication from Europe that has to be specially ordered and nobody knows about its existence.

Where does the Extreme come from? Bobby Hill's mind. Bobby Hill got some tegus from Argentina (didn't go there himself), was told by his wholesaler that they came from the Chacoa region, so Bobby Hill came up in his mind a way of marketing a specific colour morph he produced. Let me tell you about wholesalers: they are typically notorious for lying, for knowing nothing about the species they deal in, and will say anything to make a deal. "Hey, I was told it was this by my supplier, so that's why I call it this."

Salvator duseni: Don't know what you've been reading on this species (or the blues for this fact) but they are not in the northern end of the continent. They are predominantly found in Paraguay and somewhat in the state of Parana, Brasil (which is in the south end of the country). Admittedly, in this context, north and south can be somewhat relative: I consider the fat end of the continent to be the north, the narrowing end of the continent to be the south (basically, draw a line across from roughly Rio de Janiero). Blues, from what many people have argued (highly artificially, so) are from north of the Amazon (albeit once again I say hobbyists don't know what they are talking about, the features that appear on blues appear in populations in other locations in South America as well). Another history lesson here too: S. duseni were argued for quite a while as being a subgroup (maybe subspecies...) of S. rufescens. Many scientists at first did not accept their distinctive species status. The genetic analysis that has been done (albeit, very shallow and not definitive) places S. duseni more closely related to S. rufescens than to any other species, and at the time was not all that convincing at supporting a distinctive species classification.

As for

found more to the north, where the temperature is higher during the year... (no hibernation).
I can say this - I predominantly did my research on hibernation in tegus in the state of Sao Paulo, to the northeast of where S. duseni are found. It got down to 1 degree Celsius there in the winter. They definitely hibernate in this region and the temperature is definitely not in the active physiological range all year round.

[tupinambis]

So to sum this all up, folks: Blues, Chacoans, Extremes, etc. these are NOT species, these aren't even really bloodlines, these are creations of breeders and nothing more. Not saying they aren't pretty, not saying they don't breed true either. But when all you do to identify these in a species as variable as tegus are is look for little colour variations "oh, it's got a tear drop/dark nose therefore it's a blue", then these are nothing more than a morph variant. There is no documentation, no scientific papers to back up any claim that this feature is from this area or this colour is from another, because there is so much variation in the species that it is unlikely any particular trend with respect to colour holds much of a basis. These names are all marketing ploys, they are irrelevant to the actual species. I'm not saying you don't have a blue, but if you have a blue that it doesn't mean anything as to where it is from, what its genetic background is. Colour is not a definitive characteristic in tegus (with one exception). Dark noses happen in numerous populations all over the place, tear drops happen in numerous populations all over the place, white heads happen in numerous populations all over the place, orange bellies happen in numerous populations all over the place, and what you have seen in the hobby trade does not represent the totality of what is found in nature. In my own "little" research colony I had individuals with dark noses, individuals with white heads, blue colouring, I had one that was almost completely white (no, it was neither albino nor leucistic), another that was completely black, another with abundant red (not just the ventral side), some with a "roman" nose, others with straight snouts, some that had distinctive spot patterns, others that were just mottled. ALL were Salvator merianae, there was NO hybridization with another species, and all were from the local state of Sao Paulo. There is an AMAZING amount of variation in these species, particularly with colouration, and hence why when you read an actual scientific article describing a tegu species, you see very little criteria on colouration, it is unreliable. So please, realize this very important fact: colouration only signifies MORPHS (and morph does not imply "true breeding" at that), it does nothing to discern species (yes, S. rufescens is predominantly red and S. duseni is predominantly "yellow", but this in no way at all means that if you see red or yellow in a tegu that this means it is these species, or that the individual is a result of hybridization with another species, these colours happen frequently and very commonly all on their own in other species). It would also help to recognize that morphs are invented by breeders (this is not related to breeding, per se), they do not represent species and most likely do not reflect natural populations like many believe (I'm not saying the Chacoan is unnatural, or that the characters associated with Chacoans don't occur in nature, just that if you actually went to the Chacoan region, you'd see tegus that looked nothing like what you have come to believe a Chacoan should look like - Bobby Hill came up with the name, marketed it -he's never been there as I understand it- , and now you believe it). If you want to talk discerningly about species, do yourself a favour and learn the actual species names (not the common names) and what they represent, and get that information from a reviewed source (ie. NOT popular literature or people's pages on the internet, wikipedia is a joke).

[EBH]

Thank you for all your information!
It helps to clear my mind :)
I know it's better to trust scientific papers, but they are hard to find. I quess because of that, (and the hard time reading) people make up their own truth...
Is there a possibility to publish those papers (or a link) on this website? I think it would be helpful for lots of people...

Thanks again for your info!

[tupinambis]

EBH, years ago I once did compile a list of all the papers, monographs and certain books that I was aware of that dealt with Tegus (could be physiology, could be natural history, etc.) but I have to admit I haven't kept up with that list so it isn't up to date, and considering how pathetic the search engines are in these forums (I'm not bashing thetegu.com or any others, just the search engines incorporated with forum software has a tendency to...well....be less than helpful) you might not be able to find it at all anymore (it may have been lost in the several times this forum has changed servers).

[txrepgirl]

tupinambis. I'm sorry about the search engines being so bad. Thank you so much for not blaming our forum for it. I would of felt really bad because I would of thought I'm not doing a good job with our forum ( since I don't know much about computers :( ).
Is this maybe one of the information you were looking for ? If you go to your Profile you can either click on the Posts you posted or the Threads you started. You maybe can find some of the information you are looking for there. I know we lost allot of information and photos when Rick changed the server a few times.

http://www.thetegu.com/showthread.php?11655-Just-when-you-thought-you-had-a-handle-on-tegu-systematics

[tupinambis]

Oh, it certainly has nothing to do with this forum or its moderators, it's a problem that plagues all forums (I'm on a few....). I do advanced searches using my name and usually a particular key word I know is uncommon but that I've certainly used and I normally come up with no hits at all. Let's just say it isn't google that is behind the forums' search engines.

The link you've provided links to that recent paper, yes, but that's not the compiled list of other references that I was talking about. I think that is lost (between the server changes and on my end on a computer sitting defunct on a storage shelf).

[txrepgirl]

Oh, OK. I'm sorry I couldn't help you.

[Montegu]

the pic of the b/w Colombian is so little haha their face looks really different as they get older...