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Teiidae
05-28-2006, 11:10 PM
Been browsing the net looking at ideas for a euthanism chamber - might be going that route here soon - Anybody got any set-up's you would want to share ?

Janice
06-19-2006, 02:20 PM
We have a CO2 chamber. We got a tank from the local gas supply company, the fittings from a local fitting company, and a small rubbermaid container. A lot of people just use the Paintball tanks. They are a lot smaller. Just get yourself a tank, a container to put them in, take it to a fittings company, and just tell them you need 'this to fit this', and they will make it work for you, get you the seal and everything. It cost us about $20. A girl i know uses vinegar and baking soda, and swears by it, but I'm not sure of the formula.

tegulevi
06-19-2006, 04:46 PM
Im a heartless SOB i just give em the ol' grab head and pull tail method. if done correctly they are dead before you can even drop them. If done wrong well it gets kinda sad after that. i want a gas chamber though. just to much stuff to do right now.

Trippercook
10-19-2006, 06:54 PM
Is just throwing them in the freezer alive wrong?

Mochasr4me
10-19-2006, 07:22 PM
First of all in my personal opinion, Yes, freezing them to death is cruel. They do not die quickly and painlessly. They don't just go to sleep and not wake up. co2 or breaking necks(if you can do it on the first try) is much more humane. Again, my personal opinion.

Here is a link to some info on making your own co2 chamber..... hope this helps you out. I have not tried it yet but when we start raising our own, we will use this.

http://www.thereddragonsden.com/co2.htm

CRG
11-07-2006, 08:50 PM
I use a 20oz paintball tank with a hose and a rubbermaid dish.It has a hole in one side for the CO2 tube and a pinhole in the lid of the rubbermaid.You can use a styrofoam cooler well too (good for whole litters of rats)but it uses more CO2.
I dont have a fancy knob thing on the hose so I just screw it on carefully and the CO2 starts to flow.I just have to be carefull that I dont screw it in too fast or I blow the top off the container and scare the poor rodents.
Ive use ziploc bags in place of the container in a pinch for small mice/fuzzies and taped it to the hose...Anyways its a cheap version of the fancier CO2 chambers

RehabRalphy
11-07-2006, 09:24 PM
First of all in my personal opinion, Yes, freezing them to death is cruel. They do not die quickly and painlessly. They don't just go to sleep and not wake up. co2 or breaking necks(if you can do it on the first try) is much more humane. Again, my personal opinion.

Here is a link to some info on making your own co2 chamber..... hope this helps you out. I have not tried it yet but when we start raising our own, we will use this.

http://www.thereddragonsden.com/co2.htm

Ever had hypothermia? I have. It doesnt hurt, you just feel really cold. No pain. I came close to dieing from it and I felt fine, just cold. So in my opinion, freezing is fine.

CRG
11-10-2006, 06:24 PM
No way it hurts.Your toes, your ears, your finger,s all HURT before you go numb...But this is another of those arguments that could go on forever and frankly I have frozen pinkies before cause they dont go down very well with C02 for some reason it doesnt seem to work well on them..So not to be a hypocrite.I try not to freeze unless neccessary since I really dont like the idea myself because if I can do it completely painlessly why resort to something Im not sure aboutl..

RehabRalphy
11-13-2006, 01:53 AM
Ya being cold does feel a bit uncomfortable. I use the drowning method most of the time.

TheNero
11-13-2006, 03:12 AM
Drowning them lol ouch. Why not just go all out and and hang them by their tails till they die from the blood running to their brains.

TheNero
11-13-2006, 03:13 AM
not sure it would work but would suck no doubt

Teiidae
11-13-2006, 04:06 AM
Well - I don't keep the Tegu's anymore, however just used to snap the rodents neck to feed them pre-killed - The only rodent feeding reptiles I keep now are the balls, and they get fed live and eat consistently - Their feeding response is not that of the Tegu, however they do get a little ancy on feeding day - looking at me through the rack, letting me know it's that time :wink:

RainbowParty
11-15-2006, 03:25 AM
I'd be careful about the freezing/drowning methods.. depending on where you're from, those methods could be illegal.

mike
12-28-2006, 05:21 AM
for mine i just put them in a bag and smash it against the wall....they're always dead, not one has survived in the times I've done it. Is that cruel? I have never done the "grab head and pull" method successfully... man i dont want that again...(twitching and suffering with limited mobility with a slow and painful death)

RainbowParty
12-28-2006, 05:28 AM
Depending on where you live, there can be many ways to go about killing mice. In some places it doesn't really matter how you do it, but in other places they ONLY permit the head-tail pull or CO2 chambers.

reptilefreak
03-08-2007, 04:00 AM
I keep hearing that a CO2 chamber is kinda cruel. I was told that they choke because they aren't breathing oxygen. Is that true?

RehabRalphy
03-08-2007, 04:02 AM
Any method of killing can be considered as "cruel". Its just depends on what you believe.

Hell I drown em'

Vexation
03-08-2007, 04:53 AM
The CO2 idea honestly sounds like the cleanest method. I always used the thump method - grab by tail, THUMP real hard against the nearest hard surface. I believe the result is similar to the bag method Mike described.

Still, with off & on years of keeping reptiles, even in my advancing age, I still have a touch of remorse doing it. My daughters keep pet rats and they have them trained! It is a constant battle keeping them away from the breeders, else I'd have hungry herps.

reptilefreak
03-08-2007, 05:18 AM
I don't know...sometimes I think the freezer would be best, but then I don't think I could put them in there. I'd break their necks or whatever but I'm scared I would screw up and they would still live. Ugh it is so hard! hehe

tupinambis
03-08-2007, 09:48 AM
I'm not sure what the laws are in the US for the common layman, but regulations for standard scientific protocols only accept non-painful lethal injection, cervical dissociation, sudden blunt trauma to the cranium, and CO2 inhalation. Essentially, only instantaneous or painless euthanasia is acceptable. Drowning and freezing are considered abuse. I know CO2 actually acts much like an anaesthetic in ectotherms, but I've been told by some of my colleagues (I haven't tried it myself) that breathing hypercapnic air can be rather uncomfortable.

alex
03-08-2007, 02:23 PM
Rebreathing (i.e. breathing increased levels of CO2) is kind of uncomfortable, to put it mildly. It has all sorts of weird detrimental effects in mammals. However, to actually euthanise rodents with CO2 you use such a high concentration (really, it has to be close to 100%, it's heavier than air so when you open a chamber to throw in your rodents you don't flush it all out) it's quite quickly narcotising and apparently perceived as somewhat pleasant, despite the body's gasping.

Other forms of intoxication are acceptable - gas anaesthesia overdose or injectable drug (primarily pentobarbital which isn't called euthanyl in the US, I'm not a fan of t61 in mammals) but clearly, they're not ideal if you're going to feed those animals to something else as that something else gets a hefty dose of chemical and will likely show effects from them and potentially die. Rodent poison sold in stores (i.e. the anticoagulants or vit D analogues, I don't know if you can still get strychnine and 10-80 over thec ounter in the US) are a really terribly bad idea for anything you wish to feed to something else, obviously.

Cervical dislocation is quick and if you're handling your rodents properly, painless and low stress.... "thumping" is a really crude attempt at this and causes a lot of trauma and I think it just puts the rodent into a semi conscious state of shock rather than a true painless death... they might die afterwards, but I'm not convinced you're not going to have a mouse revive and be in a lot of pain for awhile.

Freezing is inhumane in either Canada or the US. The US has some funky laws with rodents (I can't believe retrobulbar blood collection is still legal, for instance) but freezing a live animal is abusive. It's a slow painful and extremely conscious way to die as ice crystals form in muscle and organs. Ditto drowning. If you know anyone who kills mice that way you should be reporting them to the SPCA for animal abuse, although I imagine it'd be more of a fine than a criminal charge at that level.

If you're too chicken to learn to properly kill mice (I'm not saying the feeling of a mouse's skull separating from it's vertebral column under my fingers is particularly pleasant) you should buy your mice prekilled... and always ask how they prekill their mice to ensure you're buying from an ethical source. As is often the case with death, it doesn't look pleasant when it sometimes is - mice are often dead when the body spasms and gasps and twitches. It looks bad but it isn't for the mouse. It's extremely selfish to put your comfort over that of the animal you're feeding to your pet.

reptilefreak
03-08-2007, 03:10 PM
I think I'll go with the CO2 then. I don't want to cause them any pain before feeding them to my tegu.

I didn't know ice crystals formed on the organs of mammals. I knew it did on reptiles, and that's why it is VERY unethical and cruel to put down a reptile by throwing it in the freezer.

I'd like to breed the rats to save money, but if I can't then I'll just by them pre-killed. I also like rats, so it be nice to have a few around, even if they are breeders.

Vexation
03-08-2007, 04:28 PM
Great - now only the most heartless of us don't feel bad. :cry:

I think I'll put some of my old engineeering talents to work and design a liquid nitrogen chamber for instant freezing. When I am done, I'll get it patented for the intended purpose, then sell the plans. I will also contract with a major TV merchandiser to sell it as the Ronco Ratcicle.

For The Tegu members, the plans (with complete operating instructions) will be $1, plus $6.95 shipping and handling. For PETA members, the plans (without operating instructions) will be $2,995.00 with free shipping. PETA members masquerading as The Tegu members will be taken out back and beaten.

Call 1-800-RAT-KILL for more details.

http://karaoketalk.com/bb/Smileys/default/woot.gif The preceding was intended as Ralph's tongue-in-cheek (read: warped) humor, even though the idea is something I may decide to work on...http://karaoketalk.com/bb/Smileys/default/teeth.gif

RehabRalphy
03-08-2007, 05:52 PM
I'm not sure what the laws are in the US for the common layman, but regulations for standard scientific protocols only accept non-painful lethal injection, cervical dissociation, sudden blunt trauma to the cranium, and CO2 inhalation. Essentially, only instantaneous or painless euthanasia is acceptable. Drowning and freezing are considered abuse. I know CO2 actually acts much like an anaesthetic in ectotherms, but I've been told by some of my colleagues (I haven't tried it myself) that breathing hypercapnic air can be rather uncomfortable.

Ill take my chances. :wink:

Trippercook
03-08-2007, 09:02 PM
Well...I just started using the co2 method. I use a medium size rubber maid container with a hole drilled in the lid and a co2 tire inflator. Works like a charm. They're dead within seconds....how painful can it be.

Rick
03-08-2007, 09:17 PM
I personally do not like the freeze or drown method. Freezing is painful if done slowly in a normal freezer. Drowning is just too long of a process for the rodent to have to suffer through. Both are legally "inhumane" for labs in the US, and for me.

I have used the 'thump' and 'tail pull' method. Both work, but require some skill to get the method down and there is still always a few that don't go smoothly.

CO2 is indeed the most humane method, legally and in my opinion, of dispatching of a rodent.

I use a 20oz CO2 bottle (paintball) with a remote lead (coiled hose) which runs to a canister. The hose goes into the cover of the canister and there is a small hole at the top to vent air as it fills with CO2.

I put a few rodents in the canister and put the cover on. I turn on the CO2 slowly so it merely seeps into the canister. This way the rodents are comfortable. They do not panic or show any indication that they know whats happening. The CO2 has a narcotic effect on them and they start having a problem with balance, they start passing out, etc. At this point they feel little to no pain. I then turn up the CO2 more. The CO2 being heavier sinks to the bottom of the canister, displacing the breathable air which comes out the vent hole on the top. I then turn off the CO2 and put my finger over the vent. The body will convulse because breathing is automatic and not driven by thought. The rodents will then sufficate. This part may seem cruel, but technically the rodent is under a narcotic effect and not feeling pain. It's much like someone commiting suicide by sitting in a vehicle with the exhaust vented into the window. If it was horribly painful, no one would successfully commit suicide this way, once it got horribly painful, they would open the door and get out of the vehicle to find a better method.

Note: I do recommend CO2 for rodents, but not for you. Please do not try the 'vented exhaust' part of my statement at home unless you are a trained professional, a bill collector or a telemarketer. :P

Rick

reptilefreak
03-08-2007, 10:02 PM
Note: I do recommend CO2 for rodents, but not for you.
Why? A little confused I guess.. :lol:

From what you are saying, it is the most painless way. I hope I can set one up.

RainbowParty
03-09-2007, 02:00 AM
he was making a funny, lol.

reptilefreak
03-09-2007, 02:33 AM
lol Yeah...I'm slow sometimes. I'm sick right now, so let's blame that. Looks like my parents won't be letting me breed rats here, but this will all come in handy next year when I move out.

RehabRalphy
03-09-2007, 03:21 AM
I still prefer the drowning method. Though it may seem "cruel" it doesn't hurt.

reptilefreak
03-09-2007, 03:59 AM
I don't know who told you that, but drowning is painful. I almost drowned when I was little at the pool because these two boys in my class (it was a field trip) kept pulling me under water and I didn't have enough energy to hold myself up anymore. It hurt. That is one way I DO NOT want to go.

Rick
03-09-2007, 04:22 AM
Drowning is not a quick death. The mental torment alone is inhumane. There is pain with drowning. I will go out on a limb here and assume you have never drowned.

First, lets ask.. What is drowning?

"It's asphyxiation due to blockage of the trachea with water, causing respiratory arrest"

Well, now that we know what drowning is.. Ever take a drink and just part of that drink goes down the wrong path? The coughing, gagging, the pain? And that is with just a little bit of fluid heading into your trachea!!

Now do this.. right now, don't bother inhale deeply.. just stop breathing while you finish reading this. Don't inhale.. in a moment you will start to feel the burn.. the pain that makes your body breath even if you try to hold your breath longer. You may think you started breathing again because of fear of death, but in fact you wouldn't die. You would pass out, but the pain as you just start to run out of oxygen in your lungs is so unbareable you took a quick breath. Think about how bad that burning would have gotten if you couldn't take a deep breath?

Hopefully everything who thinks drowning is painless takes a moment to do as I stated above. There are more humane ways to dispatch the rats. If you still wish to drown the rats, thats fine.. but don't fool yourself into thinking it's painless.

Note that this is my opinion based on some simple notions and can be simple tested as stated above.

Rick

Vexation
03-09-2007, 06:06 AM
Please do not try the 'vented exhaust' part of my statement at home unless you are a trained professional, a bill collector or a telemarketer. :P

You left out lawyers and pedophiles. :wink:

Drowning would be a horrible way to go. For me, it rates right up there with death by fire.

Now what might be the best method is if someone were to design a CO (carbon monoxide) chamber instead of CO2 (carbon dioxide). Lungs and blood both see CO and O2 similarly - apparent in situations like Rick's exhaust suicide analogy. The CO is absorbed by the blood, but unlike O2, it isn't converted - therefore, it stays in the blood cells. Now there is no room for O2. You lose consciousness and die in your sleep, usually without convulsions.

Then again, this wouldn't be as much fun as flash freezing with liquid nitrogen. :P

Craigo
03-23-2007, 07:14 PM
Yeah, I'll third that about drowning. I had a "friend" think he was teaching me how to swim when I was a young kid. He grabbed me and pushed me under a few times and it became very painful. He later explained he was just trying to teach me how to swim under water. Thank God my other buddy who's pool we were at returned from inside and came to my rescue. Drowning is not humane!

Waterboarding is torture. If you don't know what waterboarding is, look it up dude.

Craigo

sterling
09-24-2007, 12:08 AM
any one try propane? lol

deathfromabove19
10-17-2007, 09:37 PM
A lot of discussion going on about the cruelness of freezing and drowning.. I just have to ask. The link that was given out at the beggining (http://www.thereddragonsden.com/images/Rodents/co2tank.jpg ) has a part at the end saying that pinkies won't die from the co2 tank (or just take a long time), and that they have to be frozen. I would consider freezing cruel, but if i have to freeze the pinkies, how long do you think it would take for them to die?

Hellbound
10-17-2007, 10:26 PM
I just throw him in the feeding rubermaid container i have, throw on some slayer and slam they thing in there really good. Usually only takes about one hit and their out. Have had one "wake" up right when my snake was about to hit it though........still dont think he was ALL there. :twisted:

Funny how i have to get pumped to kill a mouse! ha, i really dont like to do it. Gives me the creeps every time i check to see if they are dead

reptiledude007
06-05-2008, 08:07 AM
I just break there necks.