White skin patches/ necrotic toe

[KMG]

Hopefully someone can give me some good advice. I acquired a juvie Black and White from Bert a few months ago and everything has been fine except what I have been dealing with for the last few weeks. It looks like part of the pigment in his skin only on one side has lost most of its pigment. The areas are on the whole front leg and part of the neck and side. I've done a few 2-6 hour soaks. Nothing changed. Yesterday I soaked again, only this time it looked as if maybe it was stuck shed. What I thought was old skin can off, but now he looks as if he had been burned down the length of his forearm and was bleeding from his smallest toe. Which looks like he might lose. Whats going on?
I treated the affected area with providine and wrapped. There is no way that he was burned in the enclosure. Hot spot is 95-120. Cool side 82-78. Night drop 68-72. Substrate is Cypress mulch. Which has no been changed to carefresh/hidebox is still full of moist mulch though. I have three other Tegu's and never had this problem. Any help would be great.

[Johelian]

Are you measuring the surface of the basking spot or the air above it? It does sound to me a lot like a burn, I must admit, and 95-120 seems like a very big gradient for a basking spot. What are you using to heat it? A spotlight? Is there anything under it, like a rock or something?

[tupinambis]

KMG - that sounds exactly like something that is afflicting one of my Ctenosaura. Begins by looking like a bad shed, patches of the shed adhere and develop into almost a scab, when it finally comes off the whole patch is left white (vitiligo). The scales show no indication of a burn (no blistering or deformation), although some areas appear 'bruised' for a while. With my Ctenosaura, it has been kept with other reptiles and no transfer has ever been seen (this has been about 4 years ongoing now). None of the local vets have much of a clue what it could be, I'm thinking on sending a blood sample to a lab for more intensive analysis to see if it could possibly be some sort of parasite. The lizard in question otherwise shows no ramifications - eats well, has no problems other than this odd shed thing. I've been told by many I should try selling it as a pie-bald because of the colour pattern she now has. :wink:

[varnyard]

I had a Central American Spiny Tail Iguana (Ctenosaura similis). When I got her, she had bad burns on her. After i got the burns well the patches where she was burned turned lighter.

tupinambis, is this what your looks like?

Click on the pictures to make them larger.

http://www.www.thetegu.com/modules/Gallery/albums/Varnyard-Herps/DSCF0001.thumb.jpg (http://www.thetegu.com/modules.php?set_albumName=Varnyard-Herps&id=DSCF0001&op=modload&name=Gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php)

[alex]

You need to take it to a qualified vet. What Tupinambis's spinytail has I'm almost sure is the vitiligo they seem to go through, which is weird but not a problem in many species.
However, in a tegu it could be vitiligo it could be burns, it could be bacteria, it could be fungi, it could be viral, it could be a nutritional problem and honestly, cancer should always be a differential with stuff like this. You need to take it, get skin scrapings, biopsy, culture etc... whatever the person who actually gets to examine it decides for that lesion
I'd do it sooner rather than later, as your povodine tx might cause skin scraping to appear negative, and it's actually fairly difficult to culture blood well. If it is a burn (and despite what you say, animals have an amazing tendency to hurt themselves in ways you can't predict) a burn that large is a serious health threat.
How are you wrapping it? Occlusive vs nonocclusive, wet/dry, materials?

[KMG]

Unless he has the ability to get through a solid wire heat element guard. (Impossible!) Below the basking are squares of slate. Temp between 93-123.2 degrees. No other heat is inside the enclosure. As for the wrap. I let the affected area dry out for a few hours and put a light coat of antibiotic over/covered with nonstick wound pad and loosely taped.
I'm going to keep a close eye on him until the end of the week and if there is no sign of improvement off to the doc he goes.
Thanks for all the input. I've seen different burns on herps before and this looks like no burn. Very strange.

[tupinambis]

KMG- I'm not pushing and saying it's a burn (I highly doubt it as well), but just to be on the safe side, put your bare arm on the protective cage to make sure that the cage metal isn't too hot.

Varnyard- trust me, like KMG, I'm VERY certain that in my Ctenosaura it isn't a burn either. Never had exposure to anything to have gotten that burn in the first place when this thing first appeared. Unlike Alex, I don't think it's natural because of the "bruising" component I've seen. It first showed up when I rescued the animal from a pet shop, but I haven't seen any new "expressions" in about a year or two now.

[varnyard]

I treated this one with triple antibiotic ointment. This one looked to be a burn, chances are it was the same thing. It did make a full recovery.

[KMG]

The surface heat touch check was done when the enclosure was first set up and has regular laser spot checks. Also, Yes I have put my arm under the heat source. I have also checked the temps in the enclosures that my other Tegu's have, which are identical to this one. I'm stumped. My husbandry has been exactly the same for all my Tegus. This is (knocking on wood) the only issue I've had with these guys. I also wanted to say thanks for all the replies and input. I'll let you know the outcome if there isn't a turn around this week.

[John]

2-6hr soaks...damn way to much imho! 20-30min is plenty even for the worst cases of stuck shed I've seen or other problems.

[alex]

Really, you don't know what you're treating - you need to take it into a vet to get a good look taken and diagnostics done before you screw it up and make it harder to culture - cleaning the skin might not remove a deeper problem, and just make it impossible to get that agent out of a skin scraping or biopsy.
Besides, if it is a burn, don't use a triple O (i.e. polysporin) on it like Varnyard recommended... silver sulphadiazene cream is better but needs a prescription. Most triple O's are oil based and exclude air from the healing wound while trapping moisture to the wound's surface, which isn't always great on healing skin. Air is required for healing skin.... it'll heal much faster and cleaner with a proper topical

[varnyard]

Well regardless of what it was, triple antibiotic ointment cured mine. I do know that for a fact. She is 100% cured, and back to great health. :wink:

[varnyard]

Thermal (Heat or Fire) Burns.

This is a quote from the link below.


Medications:

Topical antibiotic ointment may be applied. This may be a triple antibiotic ointment, such as Neosporin, Bacitracin, or Silvadene (a topical antibiotic commonly used for burn care).

When in doubt, it is best to provide proof. Here is a link to prove it is for burns.

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/thermal_heat_or_fire_burns/page8_em.htm

[KMG]

The affected areas on his body are very sporadic. Like I said before, this really doesn't look like burns. The skin has the same texture on his neck and side as the rest of the body, but lacks most pigment and seems to go back to normal after even a brief soaking. Which don't last 6 hours every time. I let him soak that long when I first noticed it. On average the tegus all get soaked about 30-60mins twice a week. Unless he found a spot in the enclosure to turn only one of his front legs 360 degrees rotisserie style. I wish that I had the means to post pics. Unfortunately I can't. I am 100% sure these are not burns. I have also discontinued the antibiotic ointment. I'm going to let it air out a bit and watch for improvement. Thanks again guys! I really appreciate all the feed back. I was just looking for anyone elses experience in skin issues with Tegu's. If I thought that this was life threatening and was causing him a substantial amount of discomfort he'd be at the vet. I'm sure he'll be fine. Take care.

[alex]

Varnyard, I'm sure triple O can work (it's got 3 of the best antibiotics out there, they just can't be given systemically) but it's not the best cream to use on burns for exactly the reason I outlined. Sulphaziadene is best, it's what's used in intensive burn unit operations... or so I'm told. We seem to incidentally get told a lot of human facts, but I never get to go into the fun parts of human hospitals... I would never ever trust a web reference for anything important. If you want, look in a handbook of pharmacology for exotic or pocket pets, or a small/exotic animal medicine text... there's just a few out there. It sounds like your reference is discussing minor burns, which are a different scope than the area of body affected by whatever is going on in the tegu
Dude, it's going to be so much cheaper if you take your animal to the vet now than waiting to see what happens... it's worth an office visit for peace of mind.

[tupinambis]

Now you see, that's kind of odd Varnyard, at another site:

Treatment:

Immerse in fresh, cool water, or apply cool compresses. Continue for 10 to 15 minutes.
Dry with clean cloth and cover with sterile gauze.
Do not break blisters.
Do not apply ointments or butter to burns; these may cause infection


http://www.bt.cdc.gov/masscasualties/burns.asp

This goes back to what I said about how the internet is not a trustworthy information source. You can find very contradictory material.

Yes, regular Polysporin/Neosporin and such can work. The point Alex was making is that wounds/burns heal better if they can breathe, and petroleum based oitments block the air. They have antibiotics, they can certainly help the healing process, but not as well as other products. It is better to go with the white cremes (non-petroleum based) than the translucent ointments (petroleum based).

[varnyard]

This might be true, but the site you found also says do not treat it at all, it will heal on it's own. :roll:

Ouote:


Apply cool, wet compresses, or immerse in cool, fresh water. Continue until pain subsides.
Cover the burn with a sterile, non-adhesive bandage or clean cloth.
Do not apply ointments or butter to burn; these may cause infection.
Over-the-counter pain medications may be used to help relieve pain and reduce inflammation.
First degree burns usually heal without further treatment. However, if a first-degree burn covers a large area of the body, or the victim is an infant or elderly, seek emergency medical attention.

Without treatment of some type of ointment these burs can dry out and break open. Thus having more of a problem and a open wound to infection.

I do not doubt that these white creams work as well. But is also says for burns on the label of the triple antibiotic ointment. I have had good luck with it. I do know it also works.

[tupinambis]

If you weren't so selective about what you read and actually read the whole thing, you might see that they were talking about a first degree burn in the case you just quoted. The burns you are talking about on a reptile are second or third degree, which they do recommend treating. And it does NOT state to not treat it at all. :roll:

[varnyard]

Your right it says:
Over-the-counter pain medications may be used to help relieve pain and reduce inflammation.

And then:
First degree burns usually heal without further treatment. IMO, I would say most often times it would be a first degree burn when dealing with reptiles. Unless it was unable to move away from the heat.

And reptiles do not get First degree burns? What makes you think if it was a burn it was not a First degree burn? This is a burn to the skin correct? And a second degree would be burnt a little deeper? I do not think in the case of my Ctenosaura similis it was a second or third degree burn, if it was a burn. It was only the skin that was affected.

[varnyard]

I will also add to this. Do you think that a light would cause a third degree burn, or even a second degree burn? These are most often times due to a open flame or hot liquid.

[alex]

Varnyard - Colin is calling it a second/third degree burn based on the description... I don't think I'd go so far as 3rd degree without a better decreiption and examination of the animal, but it sounds like a classical burn. You would be surprised how severe a quick burn can be... I just healed a nice 2nd degree burn (teetering on the edge of 3rd, I might add, as it took over 8 hours to feel pain at the site) from my toaster on my knuckle (don't try to spread cheese in a toaster oven without taking out your bread first, is all I can say...) and it's taken TWO MONTHS

I want to make some things very clear:
1) I am a veterinarian who was accepted into training largely because of rescue and rehab work with reptiles
2) I have said repeatedly you cannot make a clinical decision about how to treat this animal no one on this forum except the owner has seen and it has to go to a vet for a diagnosis and treatment recommendation - I hate it whenever something is visibly weird and people leave it until it's at a point where you can't do anything anymore. It must be examined before any infection is sterilised at an accessable level for diagnostics like skin biopsies, scrapings, etc
3) I have never said triple O is a sucky ointment - I specifically said that in some ways and some times it's great as the antibiotics are powerful. If this were a wound from a cagemate and you had a water based one (i.e. polysporin creme as opposed to ointment) I'd be quite happy. However, it is not the preferred treatment for burns for the reasons I have outlined - occlusion of the wound being the major one... as well, the silver sulphadiazene has silver which is inhibitory to bacteria without the development of resistance over long term use.
So
4) Triple O might've worked for your tegu just fine with no complications, however I never assessed the size, depth, area and contamination of your burn and whether it was *actually* a burn. I would not wish to be legally liable for my patient on triple O with a serious burn knowing there's better alternatives
5)This animal needs a hands on physical exam and diagnostics, not a vague description over the internet and treatment based on what other people have done for what may or may not be the same problem. You cannot practice any sort of medicine without actually ever touching an animal.

[varnyard]

alex"]Varnyard - Colin is calling it a second/third degree burn based on the description... I don't think I'd go so far as 3rd degree without a better decreiption and examination of the animal, but it sounds like a classical burn. You would be surprised how severe a quick burn can be... I just healed a nice 2nd degree burn (teetering on the edge of 3rd, I might add, as it took over 8 hours to feel pain at the site) from my toaster on my knuckle (don't try to spread cheese in a toaster oven without taking out your bread first, is all I can say...) and it's taken TWO MONTHS

I am sorry to hear you got burned.

I will also say that this was due to a red hot coil. These burns would and can be caused by a red hot coil or eye on a stove. But this is much hotter than a light bulb. I do not think there are many, if any burns that go past first degree when dealing with lighting.


I want to make some things very clear:
1) I am a veterinarian who was accepted into training largely because of rescue and rehab work with reptiles
2) I have said repeatedly you cannot make a clinical decision about how to treat this animal no one on this forum except the owner has seen and it has to go to a vet for a diagnosis and treatment recommendation - I hate it whenever something is visibly weird and people leave it until it's at a point where you can't do anything anymore. It must be examined before any infection is sterilised at an accessable level for diagnostics like skin biopsies, scrapings, etc

I understand this and agree with you.


3) I have never said triple O is a sucky ointment - I specifically said that in some ways and some times it's great as the antibiotics are powerful. If this were a wound from a cagemate and you had a water based one (i.e. polysporin creme as opposed to ointment) I'd be quite happy. However, it is not the preferred treatment for burns for the reasons I have outlined - occlusion of the wound being the major one... as well, the silver sulphadiazene has silver which is inhibitory to bacteria without the development of resistance over long term use.
So
4) Triple O might've worked for your tegu just fine with no complications, however I never assessed the size, depth, area and contamination of your burn and whether it was *actually* a burn. I would not wish to be legally liable for my patient on triple O with a serious burn knowing there's better alternatives
5)This animal needs a hands on physical exam and diagnostics, not a vague description over the internet and treatment based on what other people have done for what may or may not be the same problem. You cannot practice any sort of medicine without actually ever touching an animal.

I also agree with you on this for the most part.