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Thread: Phoenix worms (black soldier fly larvae)

  1. #11
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    Do you feel that the same would be true for butter worms? They're supposed to have twice the calcium as other feeder worms...
    "Why do blessings always come in disguises? If I were a blessing, I'd run around naked."

    0.1.0 Bearded Dragon; Spaz (aka "Monkey")
    1.0.0 Bearded Dragon; Leonidas (aka "Jaba" aka "Fatty)
    0.0.1 Ball Pythons; Lil' Bit

    0.1.0 Argentine B/W Tegu; Bozski - *rehome*
    1.0.0 Argentine A/A Tegu; Oscar - *rehome*
    1.0.0 Ball Python; Moose - *rehome*

    0.1.0 Bearded Dragon; Knuckles (aka "Kitteh"), RIP
    0.0.1 Baby B/W Tegu; unnamed, RIP

  2. #12
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    Oct 2006
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    Central FL
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    I'm sensing a logical trend of feeding high calcium medium. That makes a lot of sense.
    Laura R (FL)
    1.0.0 Colombian Tegu
    1.4.0 Argentine B&W Tegu
    1.2.0 Red Tegu
    1.2.0 B/WxRed Tegu
    1.0.0 Green Ameiva (yet another teiid)
    7 other lizards
    1 little gator
    3 FL box turtle
    1 Sulcata tortoise
    16 snakes
    5 fuzzy pets
    4 little frogs
    a bunch of creepy bugs
    and a partridge in a pear tree

  3. #13
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    Thing is, twice is still a relative term. For example. My friend has twice as much money as I do. I only have 2 cents. My friend still doesn't have much. Not saying this is exactly the situation in respect to butterworms, but as nutritionists keep telling people, learn to read the labels, or in this case, learn the actual contents. On average, there basically isn't a whole lot of difference from one invertebrate to the next, naturally. There are some exceptions. For example, although not "high" in calcium content, earthworms have a better calcium:phosphorus ratio of about 1:1. This is fantastic for amphibians, ok for reptiles. However, a lot of reptiles aren't really that into eating earthworms. Most insect larvae is usually low in calcium, improperly balanced for calcium and phosphorous ratios. They are all still good, none are exactly ideal. Basically, if it's soft bodied, then there is likely little calcium content. As adults, even, they continue to be low in calcium. The reason animals still do fine eating these in the wild without someone supplementing their calcium is because these prey are readily eating other stuff that makes them a better diet. Invertebrate prey isn't cultured because it is ideal for your organism, they're cultured because it is cheap and easy to do so. Crustaceans would be a better calcium source (instead of chitin their shell incorporates calcium), stuff like pill and sow bugs. But these are neither readily cultured, nor readily eaten by most reptiles.
    Now, specifically in regards to butterworms/Chilean moth larvae, as for whether their calcium content is intrinsic or induced by diet, this is a little harder to investigate. My understanding is they are rather specialist in their eating habits, and don't eat much other than a couple things. Makes it a lot harder to experiment with.

  4. #14
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    Central FL
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    I've been looking into the calcium content of various grasses and so-called weeds since I got my Sulcata. Many natural weed plants have a pretty good Ca: P ratio. I knew that was why wild tegus had a healthier diet when eating wild inverts, plus the bugs they eat are much larger than the larva we are feeding here. It only makes sense that the same would apply to Phoenix worms, etc. Instead of gut loading my crickets on gels and such that usually kill the crickets, I started feeding them natural grasses and greens that are high in calcium, and also dusting them right before feeding.
    Laura R (FL)
    1.0.0 Colombian Tegu
    1.4.0 Argentine B&W Tegu
    1.2.0 Red Tegu
    1.2.0 B/WxRed Tegu
    1.0.0 Green Ameiva (yet another teiid)
    7 other lizards
    1 little gator
    3 FL box turtle
    1 Sulcata tortoise
    16 snakes
    5 fuzzy pets
    4 little frogs
    a bunch of creepy bugs
    and a partridge in a pear tree

  5. #15
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    Citrus Heights, CA
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    Hmmm, that's kind of what I figured about the butterworms.

    In your research, Laura, have you happened to stumble across the Ca:Ph ratio of clovers and dandelion flowers? My beardie, Leo, goes crazy for them when I let him run around the yard. It's really the only time that I can get him to eat his greens; he likes "foraging". I've been considering placing live wheatgrass in his enclosure for this very reason; I know that it's highly nutritious for humans, but what about reptiles?
    "Why do blessings always come in disguises? If I were a blessing, I'd run around naked."

    0.1.0 Bearded Dragon; Spaz (aka "Monkey")
    1.0.0 Bearded Dragon; Leonidas (aka "Jaba" aka "Fatty)
    0.0.1 Ball Pythons; Lil' Bit

    0.1.0 Argentine B/W Tegu; Bozski - *rehome*
    1.0.0 Argentine A/A Tegu; Oscar - *rehome*
    1.0.0 Ball Python; Moose - *rehome*

    0.1.0 Bearded Dragon; Knuckles (aka "Kitteh"), RIP
    0.0.1 Baby B/W Tegu; unnamed, RIP

  6. #16
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    Central FL
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    I don't know the exact accuracy, but this is pretty close:
    Ca: P/protein
    Dandelion 2.8:1/ 2.7%
    Collards 14.5:1/ 2.1%
    Romaine 1:1.3/ 1.6%
    WheatGrass 1:1/ 15-25%
    Rye grass 2:1/ 17%
    White Clover 2.6:1/ 30%
    Laura R (FL)
    1.0.0 Colombian Tegu
    1.4.0 Argentine B&W Tegu
    1.2.0 Red Tegu
    1.2.0 B/WxRed Tegu
    1.0.0 Green Ameiva (yet another teiid)
    7 other lizards
    1 little gator
    3 FL box turtle
    1 Sulcata tortoise
    16 snakes
    5 fuzzy pets
    4 little frogs
    a bunch of creepy bugs
    and a partridge in a pear tree

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Citrus Heights, CA
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    Well, he won't eat the dandelion greens... just the flowers.

    I wonder if I can keep in his enclosure a small growing pot of both wheatgrass and clovers then.
    "Why do blessings always come in disguises? If I were a blessing, I'd run around naked."

    0.1.0 Bearded Dragon; Spaz (aka "Monkey")
    1.0.0 Bearded Dragon; Leonidas (aka "Jaba" aka "Fatty)
    0.0.1 Ball Pythons; Lil' Bit

    0.1.0 Argentine B/W Tegu; Bozski - *rehome*
    1.0.0 Argentine A/A Tegu; Oscar - *rehome*
    1.0.0 Ball Python; Moose - *rehome*

    0.1.0 Bearded Dragon; Knuckles (aka "Kitteh"), RIP
    0.0.1 Baby B/W Tegu; unnamed, RIP

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Central FL
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    I wonder if the protein is too high to be fed as staple green. Too much protein is harsh on the kidneys, but these guys are insectivores. If I find anything else I'll let you know.
    Laura R (FL)
    1.0.0 Colombian Tegu
    1.4.0 Argentine B&W Tegu
    1.2.0 Red Tegu
    1.2.0 B/WxRed Tegu
    1.0.0 Green Ameiva (yet another teiid)
    7 other lizards
    1 little gator
    3 FL box turtle
    1 Sulcata tortoise
    16 snakes
    5 fuzzy pets
    4 little frogs
    a bunch of creepy bugs
    and a partridge in a pear tree

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Citrus Heights, CA
    Posts
    815

    Default

    Sweet, thanks!
    "Why do blessings always come in disguises? If I were a blessing, I'd run around naked."

    0.1.0 Bearded Dragon; Spaz (aka "Monkey")
    1.0.0 Bearded Dragon; Leonidas (aka "Jaba" aka "Fatty)
    0.0.1 Ball Pythons; Lil' Bit

    0.1.0 Argentine B/W Tegu; Bozski - *rehome*
    1.0.0 Argentine A/A Tegu; Oscar - *rehome*
    1.0.0 Ball Python; Moose - *rehome*

    0.1.0 Bearded Dragon; Knuckles (aka "Kitteh"), RIP
    0.0.1 Baby B/W Tegu; unnamed, RIP

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