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Thread: Underground Reptiles "Pinstripe Tegu"

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tupinambis View Post
    "I object to the claim that it's genetic, even though I know it's genetic, they need to prove it's genetic before I accept it as genetic" - as an educator, can you begin to understand why I cringe? The word "genetic" is being used to convey meaning that frankly "genetic" doesn't mean.

    As per the discussion as to dominance and recessive, it's relatively hard to tell. You certainly can't tell by looking at one individual and its parents. It becomes even more difficult when you consider the polymorphism of tegus. And when I say "polymorphism", I mean it in the strict biological sense and not what many common assumptions take it to mean (ie. I don't mean it just comes in various colours). In the biological sense, polymorphism means not only that there are different colourations or patterns, but that these exist in the same geographical area (ie. they aren't separated by where they live) and that the least common variation isn't reflective of soley genetics, or in other words, the frequency of the various variants is a function of both genetics and external pressures such as natural selection. For example, let's take Dana's assumption that dark colouration is dominant, with lighter colouration being recessive: I can understand why one would think this, it does seem that darker colours are more frequent. However, if we look in their natural habitat, much of it is a sort of savanah environment, with bright, intense sunlight. Natural selection would weed out the lighter colours as they are more prone to UV damage. Therefore the lower frequency of lighter coloured individuals may not reflect recessiveness, but the effect of natural selection upon the genetic polymorphism of tegus.

    That being said, I do think there are a few traits that are either dominant or linked to another dominant trait. For instance, I find the dark snout trait to be quite persistant in generations. I also think orange bellies may be linked to another dominant trait, it seems to be quite common amongst darker lineage tegus, rare amongst lighter coloured ones.

    This reminds me of the clutch Ramblinrose had last year where one of the parents was a black head/nose and the other was white. I've only seen one thread with updated pics from people who have one, would be nice to see how more of them turn out. If there are more black heads /noses in the group compared to normal or some that are a little of both with just a little browned or singed nose.
    0.1.0 BP (Spiral) aka Rita Wayward
    2.1. Dogs (White Boys "Powder", Paw Paws "Achilles" & Panini)

    " 14 July 2010,..Always Remembered"

  2. #12
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    Oct 2006
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    I am not very knowledgeable about genetics beyond the basics, so I try to stay out of such conversations. But what I see going on in the market is interpreted in my mind like this: "I know that it is genetic, but I object to you trying to sell this as a proven inheritable trait without trying to see if or how the trait passes on first." I think that is when people get riled up.
    Laura R (FL)
    1.0.0 Colombian Tegu
    1.4.0 Argentine B&W Tegu
    1.2.0 Red Tegu
    1.2.0 B/WxRed Tegu
    1.0.0 Green Ameiva (yet another teiid)
    7 other lizards
    1 little gator
    3 FL box turtle
    1 Sulcata tortoise
    16 snakes
    5 fuzzy pets
    4 little frogs
    a bunch of creepy bugs
    and a partridge in a pear tree

  3. #13
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    These days everything is morph, morph, morph, in the reptile community. A lot of people want to be the first to say they discovered or bred something new with out putting in the work First, to find out if it will pass on what ever trait it is that makes it different from the rest. Then when you question it they get offended, ironically with proof there are few questions if any because you did the work and you have the proof to back it up.

    I totally understand why some breeders keep their projects a secret as frustrating as it may be. To wait months and years to find out, but it pays off in the end whether it proves or not. Although more so when it proves , but at least afterwards you now know with very little (if any) doubt either way.

    All the old cliches like "never cry wolf" or "don't count your chickens until they hatch" are and always will be true,..well I guess for some people anyway.

    0.1.0 BP (Spiral) aka Rita Wayward
    2.1. Dogs (White Boys "Powder", Paw Paws "Achilles" & Panini)

    " 14 July 2010,..Always Remembered"

  4. #14
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    Well, bubblz, I tend to agree with your stand, except that it is the market that fuels such behaviour. If people weren't so insanely eager to purchase the "next great morph", then there'd be a lot less of this going on. Where it really bothers me is when people start pushing the new names with geographic tags that haven't been established, either. I understand what you're getting about with the "proven lineage" aspect, but to me the real annoyance is the false "legitimization" of tagging it like "Chaco" or a country name when all you've got to back up your claim is the wholesaler's word claiming that's where it's from. It may indeed be where it's from, but to brand it like "that's what they all are like from that region" or "I'm the only person with this lineage", well, when you haven't been there, and there's no published documentation to back you up.....all I need to do is point out the history of "blues" to demonstrate the problems that arise when people make up crap like that.

  5. #15
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    I totally agree
    0.1.0 BP (Spiral) aka Rita Wayward
    2.1. Dogs (White Boys "Powder", Paw Paws "Achilles" & Panini)

    " 14 July 2010,..Always Remembered"

  6. #16
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    Buhl, I*daho
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    This is what I posted on the other forum in response to the discussion about the Red that has a ton of white.

    "It really isn't a "morph" as that would imply that more can be found within a given area with the same coloration. It is more likely a variant which may or may not be reproduced successfully. I am thinking it will be a hit or miss thing and you won't know until you try. If you want to see if it truly is a reproducible variant, you will have to breed to a Red. If you out cross to a B&W, Blue or AA, you will prove nothing. If however you breed to a Red and you get at least some babies that develop a lot of white you will know that you have a genetic trait that can be passed on. Then, to really determine the genetic depth of the color trait, you must inbreed brother to sister or father to daughter and so on. If the resulting off spring are colored largely like yours, you really will have an animal that is both beautiful and reproducible."

    At one point in a past life, I bred and showed Old English Mastiffs. I also dug deeply into the development of other breeds. Most that were refined or created by crossing different breeds and bringing in or strengthening traits, had at least some in breeding in the process. That also goes with cattle,swine, chickens and other domestic animals.
    My point is, it takes work, diligence and considerable thought. Most of all it takes a lot of time, as in years.

    As for the market, I have noticed quite a few "want" ads from people looking to buy breeders on the different forums. I have never really payed much attention before but it seems like a lot of people are trying to jump on the band wagon and become breeders. It brings to mind what happened to Ball Pythons. A ton of people began to breed normal's and different color variants thinking that they would make serious money doing so. Like with so many dog breeds, they were popular and still are but not even close to what they were a few years ago. Prices have dropped and many of the would be breeders can't sell what they have.
    I am afraid that the same may be happening with Tegus.

    T. merianea, Gordo
    T. rufescens, Eva
    V. Ionedes, Nyuse Kinabo, (Swahili - Black Gift from God)
    Standard Poodles - Millee & Sonny Boy
    A bunch of colubrids and tarantulas

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